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The Front Page of Global Fintech

The the largest fintech community in the world. Subscribe to our newsletter to stay up to date on the latest in news opinions, and all things financial technology.

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🎧 Podcast: Hey Fintech Friends ft Jennifer Arnold (MinervaAI)

"My dream future in anti-money laundering compliance is that it is almost invisible to the organisation and works so very well and so seamlessly and isn't a constantly growing cost centre that we actually get to focus on why we do that work" - Jennifer Arnold

🎧 Podcast: Hey Fintech Friends ft Jennifer Arnold (MinervaAI)
‎Hey Fintech Friends!: Hey Fintech Friends ft Jennifer Arnold (Minerva AI) on Apple Podcasts
‎Show Hey Fintech Friends!, Ep Hey Fintech Friends ft Jennifer Arnold (Minerva AI) - 1 Sept 2023

Summary of the podcast episode

  • Intro to the podcast. 0:00
    • Welcome to one of the best news and fintech podcasts out there.
    • Fintechionary: Quantitative analysis (QA) is a technique that uses mathematical and statistical modeling, measurement, and research to understand behavior. Quantitative analysts represent a given reality in terms of a numerical value. Quantitative analysis is applied to the measurement, performance evaluation, valuation of a financial instrument, and predicting real-world events such as changes in a country's gross domestic product (GDP)
    • News
  • What is MinervaAI and how does it work? 5:19
    • MinervaAI predicts and identifies who poses financial crime risk to a business, using machine learning and deep learning to replicate the thinking process of a human investigator.
    • MinervaAI does data identification. She does all the work in about 20 seconds. She is able to pull back all the data that regulators say is needed and maintain and refresh on a regular basis.
  • The future of anti-money laundering compliance. 10:18
    • Her dream for anti-money laundering compliance is that it is almost invisible to the organisation and works seamlessly and is not a constantly growing cost centre.
    • In the last decade or so, the industry has focused on transaction monitoring and suspicious transactions to catch the bad guys.
    • The push towards decentralisation in banking and moving into so many different elements of society.
  • Regulation and regulation of crypto. 15:33
    • There is no sidestepping the regulatory piece.
    • Her spicy hot take on fintech today is that time is over for organisations to get their act together and behave like mature, responsible members of society.
  • Why do we do what we do? 21:16
    • There are a lot of terrible organisations that use the same methods, because everybody has to move money around. It doesn't have to be sexy and interesting.
    • Two of the most memorable moments in her career, one in compliance and one in AML, where she fell out of love with the subject matter and social good.
  • Bringing the human side of the topic to the forefront. 27:28
    • The social element that MinervaAI created, how it is always women and minorities who are affected the most when it comes to human trafficking.
    • Quick fire questions, 10 random questions.
    • Upcoming Events and Signals snippet

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Hi, Jennifer, it's really lovely to meet you. Let's just start with, Tell me a bit about yourself, who you are, what you do,

Jennifer 5:19
I am a recovering and former bank executive at some of Canada's largest; I was building and deploying large-scale Financial Crimes programs along with one of my co-founders, Victor Chang. And we, like, we really built Minerva to deal with what we were dealing with at work every day, which was a fairly, like, monotonous and ridiculous problem.

And it just seemed to us that our employers were constantly trying to solve the wrong problem when we were addressing anti-money laundering compliance programmes in banking. And then before that, I had a life as a communications person; I ran communications for a number of different companies, which weirdly is a lot like risk management. So, the transition was fairly seamless.

Helen 6:02
Yeah, I get that. It's weird. Actually, I feel like with careers where you start with one, and then you realise, oh, I can actually do something else. I just didn't really necessarily know that I could in that way. So were to talk about Minerva, like, and you were explaining it to your mom, or your or your noncompliance or comms friend, or yeah, just to me, like, how would you explain Minerva, what you do? Like, in the most simple terms for us, none FinTech people,

Jennifer 6:37
None FinTech people, I would say Minerva is a platform that predicts and identifies who poses financial crime risk to your business, that is to say, is there anything in there, in their profile, in their friendship network or their work network or anything in the news ever? That would indicate that they might do something naughty if you let them into your financial ecosystem.

Helen 7:04
And how does it do that?

Jennifer 7:07
Now, that's the that's the not so simple part. So, with Minerva, we look at AI in a couple of different dimensions. So, we employ machine learning like many; we also employ deep learning in order to replicate the thinking process of an actual human investigator who looks at this work. So Minerva does data identification, that is to say, I go to Minerva, and I say, find me, Jennifer Arnold, in Toronto. If you ever just Google Jennifer Arnold, there are like a billion of us, right? The name is so basic, for lack of a better word. So I need Minerva to go find this Jennifer Arnold. And she does that very well. And very quickly, and then I need manoeuvre to go and pull back all of the data that our regulators say that we need to obtain, and maintain and refresh on a regular basis about this, Jennifer Arnold.
And then we asked me never to do the risk analysis itself and say, you know, based on your company's risk profile, or risk appetite, how risky is this person or is this entity to your organisation, and she does all of that in about 20 seconds. And if you think about how that work gets done today, it is by a fully unassisted human being, like doing Google searches and using copy and paste; it takes hours and hours to do that work. And so, we managed to condense that down to about 20 seconds to give the analyst information and insight that they can work with right away. So

Helen 8:31
It's funny because I feel like right now, in the news, there's so much when it comes to AI taking everybody's jobs and all this stuff. And it's true, it will. But like specifically for what you're talking about, I can remember when I used to be in trade credit. And even though I wasn't in compliance, I did a lot of that kind of work: Googling, searching, trying to find this dataset, that dataset for this company that ended and in a lot of ways, you are kind of condensing what that job is. But I remember being what even a graduate then thinking, This feels like, like, I can't believe like this is a job. Yeah, if that makes sense. Well,

Jennifer 9:07
Imagine you're getting mentioned, you get hired by, let's say, you get hired by a big bank, and you are going to be an anti-money laundering, counter-terrorist financing investigator; that sounds pretty frickin sexy to me. And then you get to work, and you realise you like to query a bunch of different systems and use copy and paste, and that's how you spend your day. How disengaging and disappointing is that because your job is to do risk analysis, well, how do you do that analysis if your entire time is taken up with manual, menial administrative nonsense that could be automated and that we could apply intelligence to help you do that work better, faster, more affordably more accurately, and also give you everything you need to get through a regulatory examination. So you don't get your butt handed to you when they show up.

Helen 9:53
No, no, it makes so much sense because I think when you, for instance, when you just finished university, or as you said, you've come in, you think you've got this like a super sexy job. And then you spend your day like, like, literally on Google search, like, is that Jennifer Arnold?

So where do you see kind of the industry going with something like Minerva AI on the market, coming through and disrupting everything? What does the industry look like in, like, ten years' time, I guess?

Jennifer 10:31
Oh, I guess my dream future in anti-money laundering compliance is that it is almost invisible to the organisation and works so very well and so seamlessly and isn't a constantly growing cost centre that we actually get to focus on why we do that work, which is to shut down human trafficking, drug trafficking, terrorist financing, that, career and, that discipline really becomes designed around what it was meant to do, which was prevent this kind of these atrocities that are happening in our like, so-called Modern world and get there. How do we do that? I think doing things like being able to move anti-money laundering compliance into real-time, as we do with fraud detection, is a big lever to get there when we can start operating in real-time instead of six months behind.

And after the fact is what we do today, there's lots we can lever there, that one prevents the bad guys from getting into the ecosystem in the first place, enables and accelerates the growth of an organisation because they're not constantly in fear of getting a smack from the regulator can get new products and services to market more quickly, can enter new markets more quickly, because you have the lay of the land, from a regulatory perspective already built into your processes. And so I think very much in terms of being able to create a universal perpetual, you know, AML, KYC, fraud, identity that users can control and interact with their financial services providers, right? And then, we eliminate so much of that cost and repetitious work across multiple financial services providers.

Helen 12:13
No, that makes a lot of sense. Because yeah, you're just you're essentially just making it faster, quicker. And taking away the grunt work that is there. To me, it makes sense. I feel like we have to go back to the question about, like, how you explain it to your, like, friends, just like all that, well, actually, maybe because we were talking about very specific, we're talking about such a specific industry. So, not everyone would kind of have that interaction. When I

Jennifer 12:37
Think about financial crime development in the last decade or so; we really focused as an industry we really focused on things like transaction monitoring and looking at suspicious transactions as a way to catch the bad guys or identify the bad guys. And then when I started looking at our processes and controls about how we determine who gets into an organisation who we onboard as a client, it's actually pretty weak, like your driver's licence, some ID, a credit report, and like tickets, boo, you're off to the races? Well, that's kind of insane.

If you want to onboard the best customers, the legitimate customers, as quickly as humanly possible, then do some of that work upfront around the risk assessment, look at their adverse media, and look at their network and friends. And because there isn't a human being in the world that can actually process, assimilate, and analyse that volume of data that quickly enters AI. That's where that makes sense. It is not about replacing humans necessarily, but it is about augmenting them and helping them make better decisions a whole lot faster. So we spent all this money on transaction monitoring; transaction monitoring is a pretty blunt instrument. And every time we implemented a new system at a bank, the executive team or the CEO was like, Well, why do we still have a backlog? Why do we not go faster? And well, because you just put in a system that generates more work for the same group of human beings, you didn't actually give the human beings anything to do the work with, right? And I think we looked at all of those solutions around name scanning and transaction monitoring as tools to accelerate those processes. But all it did was accelerate the volume of work. And we never gave the investigator a platform or a toolkit in order to investigate more quickly, more accurately,

Helen 14:23
goes like a spanner in the works or question, or to be fair, I feel like you'll be able to answer it quite quickly. Obviously, there's so much push towards decentralisation. Right? Like in banking, and actually, that's moving into so many different elements of society, not just banking, but I guess it's kind of started with money.

So with that, kind of on its head where, you know, you can essentially be anonymous in a lot of ways when it comes to like crypto and web three and all these things. How does that work with, like, what you're creating and manoeuvre and making sure that you, I can kind of trace people on what they're doing?

Jennifer 15:02
Well, this is a very interesting and hot topic and crypto diehards, please don't come for me, but I think so; obviously, we faced a number of challenges in the last year with defy and crypto specifically, and the occurrences of fraud, right? That's a really, really disturbing trend. And we have to ask ourselves, why? And I think the premise of a trustless system, the pseudo-anonymous trustless system, doesn't actually align with how human beings operate. We are trust-based creatures, whether we say we are admitted or not. We do like relationships; we do build connections. And so, what of that model really works and really makes sense? And if we want things like mass adoption for crypto and defy, then we do need regulation; we do need controls because we do need to protect consumers.

Without that, there will never be this sort of transformation, this financial transformation or evolution that people have been talking about for so very long because we can't do with trust when we work with crypto exchanges because they onboard their own clients right onto their platforms. They're still beholden to the same regulatory framework as a financial institution, right? So in the US BSA Patriot Act, etc. AML 2020. Those all apply, whether you like it or not, right? I think it was like, what, 20 Long times ago, I want to say it was like 2012, maybe even the Senate came out and said, if you deal in virtual currencies, if you're crypto, etc., you are a regulated entity, and you sit under the same umbrella as everybody else. So our clients very much have to do, you know, identity verification and authentication KYC enhanced due diligence, they do transaction monitoring, using amazing tools like chain analysis. And they do have to do investigations. And they can use Minerva for that purpose. So there's a role for us there. And we don't want to tip my hand too much here.

But we have something that is specifically designed for those ecosystems that we'll be talking about really soon that I think, again, will be quite transformative in that way. But there's no sidestepping the regulatory piece. And I mean, I'm sure you're aware, but if we just look at what's happening globally, around regulation, not only for defi and crypto but for banking in general and fintechs, etc., that pressure is only going to steadily increase. So the question becomes, then, how does an organisation not build a compliance programme that becomes a major energy second drain on the revenue-generating side of the business?

How do they facilitate revenue generation? And I think that's the question that folks should be asking themselves, which is, what do we need to do to make our AML programme actually something that accelerates growth, gets us into new markets more quickly, where you're really partnering with your revenue side of the business, and not becoming the department that everybody hates? Because you're an obstacle to doing just about everything, which is kind of what we are in most places today. Right? Like, that's how people, that's how many organisations view their AML function as unnecessary evil?

Helen 18:17
Yeah, well, you're unnecessary evil, but you're making the necessary evil quicker and more seamless, and fewer people are involved.

Jennifer 18:27
Exactly. And here's a crazy idea. How about we also make it effective? Right, like one of the myths about our businesses, you can either have an effective programme or an affordable programme. How about you just do both? How about you make it really seamless, invisible, and cost-effective? But how will you also identify the right risks at the right time and get them out of your ecosystem?

Helen 18:47
Yeah, that makes sense. I guess what you're saying is, like, it's about striking this, right? The balance between okay, like, we're going to do things, and it's going to be innovation and like we understand, defy, and we accept Defy. But also, we can't do it too much because, essentially, it leads to fraud, as we've seen last year, and we're still seeing Yeah, and

Jennifer 19:08
I think just, you know, I know that lots of communities are kind of against that regulation that, that control about what this sort of true ideal state is, but it's like a maturity, you know, it's a maturity thing, right? Like, we've tried it out a couple of times, we've screwed it up a couple of times. And not everybody in the ecosystem is bad, but we've had some, like real big, honking issues that have destroyed billions of dollars in wealth. That's not okay. So, we need to find this: How do we help the industry grow and mature and provide the kind of safety and control that your average consumer needs?

Helen 19:48
It's so funny because I was going ask you a question that the previous guest asked, but the question is like, what's your spicy hot take on FinTech today? Don't?

Jennifer 20:02
Yeah, I think so; my spicy hot take on Fintech is. So we've done lots of really interesting things and lots of growing, and we've done a really good job of avoiding ignoring or circumventing traditional financial crime controls in the name of growth. I think that time is over.

And it's time for organisations that are moving money and accepting deposits dealing in virtual assets to get their act together and behave like mature, responsible members of society in general, right? Like, yes, it's a pain in your face. Yes, it costs you money. But don't you want to prevent human trafficking in the communities in which you operate? Like, isn't that, like, just not just a win-win for everyone? And we talk a lot about organisations that are for their social good, and, you know, banking, the unbanked and doing all of these wonderful things, but part of that responsibility is looking at, what kind of world do you create when you start removing some of those controls? And how do we find this happy medium? So, for me, I think fintechs have to grow up and accept their responsibilities from a regulatory perspective in order to fulfil their obligations to society.

Helen 21:16
Yeah, I think you make a really good point there. Because I think a lot of the time when we do think about this function, it's just like, Okay, we know we have to do it, but like, I can vouch for this person. Like, realistically, this person is not a drug lord. But equally. Exactly. Yeah. But no, but it's true. Because it's like, you know when I think about certain, like, doing those kinds of like vetting elements, it's like, realistically, we're doing it, but also, we know that we know this person is fine. But I think the point you make there is actually that's also true. But what is also true is that there are a lot of really, you know, terrible organisations that use the same methods because everybody has to move money around. It's not just like, you know, people doing good things. There's a lot of people who use, there's a lot of people who use crypto, there's a lot of people, and it's not even just crypto, just general, money transfer doesn't even it doesn't have to be so sexy and so interesting to move money around. So yeah,

Jennifer 22:11
I shouldn't say like AML; I think it is very much performative for much of the financial community. Globally speaking, we have these, we have these requirements that we must fulfil; yep, you got to do it totally. Are they all like the best possible version of what they can control? Could be?

No, not by far. But you can fulfil your requirements, actually identify and prevent financial crime and safeguard your shareholders, your customers and your organisation. Those things are all possible. At the same time, you just have to think about the work differently. And for me, that is, why do we do what we do? We don't do it to fulfil the requirements from a regulatory perspective that we must do it because we don't want to be that organisation that gets named in, you know, a money laundering scam that is facilitating, you know, human trafficking of young women and girls throughout the Midwest. Nobody wants that.

Helen 23:07
When you take it to that extreme, I think then it sort of humanises the issues of why this is so important in so many different ways. So yeah, I can. I completely get that.

Jennifer 23:32
Yeah, exactly. How do you feel about this? No one's gonna say, like, no one's gonna say, oh, yeah, no, we're totally cool with that. But then you just have to connect it to Okay, so what do we do to prevent it? And yes, you have these obligations that you have to fulfil from a legal perspective.

But it doesn't mean that you can't do that and do the other thing, right? You can satisfy both. By using a platform like Minerva, you can survive your regulatory examination and have all the documentation that you need while also effectively and accurately identifying problems in your ecosystem.

Helen 24:05
I want to I want to ask you some other questions that the previous guests asked. What was your kind of? I kind of thought I felt like that. What was that? You're like, oh, a shit moment in your career, basically.

Jennifer 24:18
Oh, wow. So there were honestly there were two; one that got me into compliance in the first place and that into AML, which was, I was working as the Head of Communications for an organisation, and we've had a number of security incidences. It was my view that perhaps our protocols were falling apart or not being followed because we shouldn't be having this big bubble of trouble happening so frequently. And no one was really open to that conversation.

And I kept thinking, like, is it systemic? Are these really just a one-off coincidences? And while I was going through that, I really just fell out of love with my career in communications. I'm like, Yeah, okay. So, I like this part, but this part is not really doing it for me. And then, when I got to the exciting world of AML, no laughing people, I know lots of people think it's dull as dirt. But I got to this role, and I completely fell in love with the subject matter. I fell in love with the social good, like, what is it that we're trying to achieve? And it's, it's difficult, and it's hard. And because the volume is so high, it's really challenging to find that needle in the haystack. But I want to work on that problem. That's the problem I want to solve. I want to find my bad guy sitting amongst all the good guys. And I was at, I think I was probably just newly at Bank number two, I'd been at Bank number one, I got to point number two. And I was watching the same sort of drama and inefficiency and stupidity play out in terms of how we thought about investigation and how we engaged investigators; the team was growing constantly, which I didn't think was great. And that we had brought in a bunch of systems that were generating work for those same people and expecting them to be able to keep up or go faster without any augmentation. And then for me, personally, I was watching a fairly, like, I would say, a young cohort of investigators come in who were really excited about what they were there to do. And then, within three months, completely disenchanted and disengaged. And then the people who showed a real aptitude for that just left, right, they just went to go do the same work somewhere else, or left, like left in alt, left it altogether.

And so, really, it came from a place of empathy that this job shouldn't suck because it's important. And we're not any further ahead. And, when the Jeffrey Epstein thing started to unfold, I was crushed because all of the clues had been there actually, for years, and nothing was done. And part of it was because they couldn't move in real-time; they had no ability to very quickly look across financial institutions to look at the behaviour. And then, most importantly, there was a, I would say, a corporate will to not want to know the full story because you don't want to lose a big whale of a client like that. And so for me, that was like, Okay, this is this is kind of sick and sad, and bananas, and we've got to be able to do something about this. And so, for me, the real-time element became really important.

Helen 27:28
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I, you know, what, before you started when I asked you that question, you were like, you said something about your passion about AML. And, like, people shouldn't laugh. And I know you were joking. But the reality is, I think one of your passion for the subject definitely comes across when you talk about it. So I think no one can say that. It's not interesting when you talk about it. But then I also think as well, like, like I said, I think when you talk, there's like you bring it the human side of this topic.

So, like, for instance, I would never have necessarily made that connection of like, okay, obviously, like the human trafficking with Jeffrey, Jeffrey Epstein, which we all watch, we all watched the whole thing unravel. And we were all like, this is insane. This is insane. Just how institutionalised this whole situation was. As you said, I think beyond all of that, there is the wanting to know about it, wanting to investigate it. And in a situation with what you're creating with Minerva, it doesn't matter about the attitude or whatever you want to or do not want to know about it. Because the whole thing is so automated, that you can't be like, Okay, it's a massive pile. We're gonna look at it in. We'll never know,

Jennifer 28:50
We'll never know. Yeah, we'll never we'll never get there in time. We'll never get there in time. Yeah, it's a. I mean, it's a lot it is. It's a lot like a burning building and you know, the fire, you know, fire trucks sitting in the station, but no one's giving the order to go and, you know, help to get the people out of the burning building. And that is just so antithetical to humanity. I can't, like, I can barely wrap my head around that kind of that way of thinking, like, you've got to, I don't know how you wouldn't want to do this work. So you know that your community, your customers, your shareholders, their children, etc. are protected.

Helen 29:33
Yeah, yeah, no, it's, I don't think I've looked at it in that way. So it's it is. I really liked the way you've used the social element that you've kind of created because I think as well, when it comes to these situations, it is always gonna be like women, minorities, like people on the fringes of society who are affected the most when it comes to these things. Like, you know, especially when we talk about human trafficking, like, yeah, sit on the shadows of society that it's affected. The most, but there can be a willingness to not investigate or to not do anything. Not necessarily, even sometimes because people don't want to just because they're like, it seems long, can't be bothered.

Jennifer 30:11
When I first came across when I first was introduced to AML. And what we were doing and sort of the connections to our well-being as a world as a society in general, I'm like this is, this is the only problem that I want to solve. And that's what I think made Minerva for us. So, like such a passion project from the very beginning.

Helen 30:31
Of course, that makes sense because it sounds like you are solving it. That's amazing. I'm gonna move on to our last segment. It's a little bit more lighthearted, but I'm just going to ask you some random questions and answer them. Basically, we've got 10. So yeah, quick fire. Would you rather be a clown who distracts the ball? Or the cowboy who writes the ball?

Jennifer 30:55
Yeah, both of those sound not great. I think I'd rather be the cowboy.

Helen 30:58
What's the best age,

Jennifer 31:01
It's corny, but like the one that you're at, right? Because you can't go back. So Sukkot and, you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. And I have the privilege of watching my own child grow up. And every age is the best age that they're at, even though they all come with their challenges, like teenage girls. I think the best age is the one that you're at or the age at which you are most yourself when you are the uninhibited version of yourself where you're not trying to please or conform, where you just have no apps to give, and you're kind of doing your thing.

Helen 31:40
No, but yeah, yeah, that's good. That's a good way of putting it. Would you rather drink catch up through a straw or eat me over the spoon? That's where I got that question from

Jennifer 31:53
gross. Catch up through a straw. The texture of mayonnaise is deeply upsetting.

Helen 32:00
Yeah, I feel you. Would you rather live in a country with a low cost of living but horrible weather or live in a country with a high cost of living and amazing weather?

Jennifer 32:11
I think the weather is integral to my well-being, so I will stay where I am, which is a fairly expensive city with relatively decent weather.

Helen 32:20
Would you rather be a chicken for a day or a cow for a day? Oh,

Jennifer 32:25
Oh, okay. So, like, the threat of imminent death is equal, I think, depending on where you are, the cow or chicken. But if I wasn't on a farm where I was about to begin my hamburger, I think I would be a cat.

Helen 32:37

Would you rather perform surgery or fly a commercial plane without any qualifications? Performance? Yeah.

Jennifer 32:55
Oh my god. Yeah, no, I would completely lose myself in a plane. Yeah, no, no. I don't know why. But it just seems very clear to me that, obviously, you would want to jazz hands your way through surgery versus flying and giant.

Helen 33:12
I'm the complete opposite. I would rather be on the plane because then. I don't know. I feel like I could work out. I've played enough video games.

Jennifer 33:19
Ah, okay. All right. That's fair. Yeah, I have

Helen 33:23
about the surgery. I would have no clue. I don't know the pull person, unfortunately. Would you rather be forced to listen to the same song ten times on repeat? Or spend the rest of your life forced to watch the same movie? The same five movies for the rest of your life?

Jennifer 33:44
Okay, so I only have to listen to the song ten times on repeat.

Helen 33:47
Yeah, you're just listening to the same song on repeat, Or you're forced to watch the set of the same five movies on repeat for the rest of your life?

Jennifer 33:55
Oh, more. I will probably pick the same five movies for the rest of my life versus the same song for the rest of my life.

Helen 34:09
records. It's like if you put on the TV, I'm just making this up as I go along. Yeah. If you put on the TV, That's the only thing you can ever pick from. If you want to listen to music. It's those ten songs. That's the only song you ever hear. Oh,

Helen 34:48
Okay, last question. Would you rather fight a mermaid or a polar bear?

Jennifer 34:52
I think mermaids are kind of scary. They would freak me out. Polar Bears is a little more grounded. It's still totally eating me, but a mermaid would drown me. I like, so I have no like; I have no anticipation of winning any of these fights. It's just now about choosing which way you want to go. Maybe the journey would be more peaceful. I will choose the mermaid.

Helen 35:13
Alright, I've got two more questions for you. That's the end of the quickfire session. What do you think I should ask the next guest on the show?

Jennifer 35:20
What do you think I should ask? What regrets or misses on your journey so far? Like, if you could do a do-over? What would it be?

Helen 35:33
Oh, I love that question. Definitely gonna ask it. I'm gonna write it down. And then, secondly, who's a FinTech friend that you think we should be interviewing next time?

Jennifer 35:46
Oh, um, you should talk to Kathleen Chan at Calico AI. She is. She's, they're, they're a seed company. They're like fashion and accessories supply chains. And there are Serena ventures as well. And cats are just really interesting.

Helen 36:05
Awesome. I will hit you up after for her details. Okay, thank you so much. This has been really, really awesome. I've really enjoyed our conversation. And I feel like I've learned so much, especially when it comes to kind of putting these two things that often are seen as separate together. So I'm really excited for what Minerva does and what this future looks like where we automate everything, and then we can actually get bad things.

Jennifer 36:35
Off and out would be great. Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun.